Brainstorming: Neptune, exchanges, price discovery.

⚓ Neptune    📅 2024-12-29    👤 danda    👁️ 23      

danda

Exchange listings are generally necessary for price-discovery of a cryptocurrency. Or at least they are a shortcut to price-discovery.

In recent years centralized exchanges (CEX) have been delisting “privacy coins” left and right. Even monero, the largest privacy coin by usage, has been delisted from most CEX.

I may be wrong, but I believe Neptune will face an uphill, costly fight if efforts are made to get listed on CEX. It may be better to not even attempt that path, but rather focus efforts on the Decentralized Exchange (DEX) path from the start. DEX makes a critical component of the neptune ecosystem more resilient to attacks. Further if DEX is part of neptune’s “core DNA” from the start, then the community that forms around it will value that model and pass it on to newcomers, strengthening the entire ecosystem and ethos.

Broadly speaking, there are a few types of DEX:

  1. CryptoCurrency <—> Fiat.

The best known example is Bisq, a DEX that enables bitcoin <–> fiat trades, and bitcoin <–> altcoin trades. It is bitcoin centric, and it includes its own token (BSQ) and a Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO) proposal/voting mechanism for change management and rewarding contributors.

The Monero community has created a fork of Bisq called Haveno that enables monero <–> fiat trades and monero <–> altcoin trades. It is monero centric. It does NOT include its own token or a DAO. It is just an exchange, as Bisq was in its early days.

Both Bisq and Haveno are written in Java, although a bare-bones rust prototype of Bisq called Risq was created approx 5 years ago.

  1. Tokens/Erc-20.

These are typically smart contracts operating on a blockchain such as Ethereum that provides some kind of “wrapped” token for each supported cryptocurrency, and for fiat as well, and bidirectional bridges. These require trust in the bridge operators, the wrapped token mechanism, the underlying blockchain, and the fiat stablecoin operators.

  1. “Local” or Face-2-Face (F2F) websites.

In the past there was localbitcoins, localmonero, agora desk, etc.

For F2F trades, all that is needed is a website for people to post a city, contact details, typically via an anon messaging system, and some basic info about the types of trades they perform (buys or sells, price/percentage, limits).

Sites such as localbitcoins and localmonero provided an escrow service and tried to force users into it, ostensibly for security, but mostly so the website could take a cut. Despite the “local” in their names, both sites mostly concentrated on online payments and kind of neglected the F2F experience, again because it leads away from escrow or any reliance on the website after the first trade/introduction.

Making the website a middleman in each transaction is also a liability for the website operator as it potentially introduces a legal responsibility to ensure there is no criminal activity happening, etc, which then may legally require KYC, etc. I believe this is why most of these types of websites have ceased operations in recent years.

It is my contention that a website that focuses on providing a first class F2F matching/introduction service would be a useful thing, and has never really been done right, to date. Such a site would be simple to build and cheap to operate. Once created it could subsist on community donations. The source code and database could both be open, so that if any one instance is attacked or taken down, another can pop-up. The website is never a middleman in any transaction and takes no fees, so there should not be any legal obligation (ianal) to perform KYC or other checks.

  1. Everything else.

There are some other systems out there such as ThorChain. I’m not sure how applicable they could be for Neptune. Happy to hear of suggestions, more details….

What makes sense for Neptune?

Many possibilities exist. Here are some:

  1. Attempt to get neptune listed on Bisq or Haveno. Encourage people to trade fiat –> bitcoin –> neptune on Bisq, or fiat –> monero –> neptune on Haveno. This is a slow process, with possible slippage at each step. note also that it may be next to impossible to get listed on Bisq until Bisq v2 is ready.

  2. Fork Bisq or Haveno or Risq and make a Neptune-centric version of it. This would be a lot of work, but long-term may have a nice payoff.

  3. create a neptune bridge and wrapped token on ethereum and possibly other blockchains or layer-2s. Then people could easily trade stablecoins and other tokens for a neptune token, and eventually bridge it back out to real neptune. This tends to keep most economic trading activity on the host blockchain however.

  4. create something like erc-20 and an exchange smart-contract on neptune itself. There would probably need to be a token/wrapper and bridge for at least 1 stablecoin. and emulate enough APIs for clients like metamask to interact. This is potentially a lot of work, but eventually it seems it must happen in some manner, if neptune is to flourish.

  5. Local trading website. A basic website, without escrow or fees, and focusing on F2F only could probably be built in a couple of weeks and provide a lot of utility for early neptune users to connect with eachother for trades.

Summary:

(1) and (3) may be relatively fast to setup but have significant drawbacks.

(2) and (4) are likely better long term solutions, but may take considerable development effort, resources, time.

(5) is relatively simplest to build, and should be done first, imho, as the lowest hanging fruit. If there is interest, I can describe the vision/concept in greater detail.

Note that both Bisq and Monero have mechanisms in place for developers to make proposals and the community to fund those proposals. Likely Neptune will need such a system, but that’s for another post…

🏷️ exchange, dex, cex, f2f

aszepieniec    2025-01-01 👍 👎

  1. Tokens/Erc-20.

These are typically smart contracts operating on a blockchain such as Ethereum that provides some kind of “wrapped” token for each supported cryptocurrency, and for fiat as well, and bidirectional bridges. These require trust in the bridge operators, the wrapped token mechanism, the underlying blockchain, and the fiat stablecoin operators.

It is worth noting that Neptune offers a way to avoid trusting bridge node operators. Neptune smart contracts can verify the consensus mechanism of the target chain, and at this point they can conjure an equal amount of wrapped tokens that were locked on target chain. Verifying the smart contract is cheap because Neptune is STARKs all the way down; the cost is born by the transaction-initiator.

Conversely, if the target chain can process arbitrary logic, then it can be made aware of Neptune’s consensus (by verifying a STARK proof) and unlock an equal amount of native tokens that were burned on Neptune.

This construction is technically challenging. In particular, it requires two missing features (that are nevertheless firmly on the roadmap):

  • Continuations. Lets you split op the production of a proof of a long-running computation (like verifying the consensus mechanism for all of history of a given chain) into combining a bunch of proofs of segment-chunks.
  • Succinctness. Lets you evaluate the block fork rule (and thus, decide which candidate chain is canonical) with negligible computational work. This is the feature that allows the target chain to verify the consensus of Neptune by verifying just one STARK proof.

These technical challenges must be solved for trustless wrapped tokens which are pegged at a 1-1 rate. If we drop the peg, then we can make do with cross-chain atomic swaps and these do not present the same challenges.

Making the website a middleman in each transaction is also a liability for the website operator as it potentially introduces a legal responsibility to ensure there is no criminal activity happening, etc, which then may legally require KYC, etc. I believe this is why most of these types of websites have ceased operations in recent years.

My understanding is that the cost of operations (including, especially, compliance) was larger than the income, so they made the rational choice to wind things down. The economy of scale benefits huge exchanges, where the compliance formula is optimized and then rolled out at scale. As an end-user who has to do KYC anyway, you prefer the more streamlined onboarding process and the reduced slippage of larger exchanges.

The website is never a middleman in any transaction and takes no fees, so there should not be any legal obligation (ianal) to perform KYC or other checks.

I am not a lawyer either but I did take note of a worrying precedent set by the Dutch courts in the Pertsev ruling, which is being appealed. Custody was ruled not to be a prerequisite to culpability. The court agreed that stopping Tornado Cash or freezing the funds in a targeted or even blanket way were not within Pertsev’s capabilities. The relevant fact, in the eyes of the court, was Pertsev’s software development activities that amounted to money laundering. Moreover, the fact that Pertsev was a beneficiary of fees derived from this money flow was found to be irrelevant for the determination of guilt; it was taken into account for deciding the severity of the sentence.

This precedent may percolate to other courts. And even if this particular ruling is overturned, it still provides legal ammunition for hostile states. Based on my cynical reading, I would say that in the eyes of the law, never being a middleman in any transaction is not sufficient to exculpate the website operator of complicity in crimes that are enabled by that website.

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